Biography
Biography ContentTranscript
Attorney. Interviewee is Clifton Lee "Scrappy" Holmes and the interviewer is Tina W. Thomas.TT: The following is an interview on Friday, April 19, 2002 with Clifton L. Scrappy Holmes of Longview, Texas. It will become part of an oral of the United States District Court, Eastern District of Texas. It is for the Department of History at the University of Texas at Tyler. The interviewer is Tina W. Thomas. It is approximately 3:00 PM.
TT: If you'll just tell me your name. State your name.
CH: Scrappy Holmes.
TT: And where do you currently resend?
CH: In Diana, Texas
TT: Oh, I did not know you lived in Diana. That's where I live. I thought you lived in here in Longview. How long have you lived there?
CH: I have had a farm up there for years; but we built a house up there about 6 or 7 years ago?
TT: Okay, how did you get the nick name "Scrappy."
CH: First name I ever had.
TT: Really, your parents?
CH: Midwife
TT: Oh really, well she must have thought you were a fighter.
CH: My aunt.
TT: Ha, and that name just stuck with you. Does everyone call you that?
CH: She said something like this is a scrappy little fellow or something, some off the wall comment and it just stuck.
TT: And it must have stuck. She must have recognized your personality.
CH: Ha, more like a boy named "Sue," I just had to live up to it.
TT: (Laugh) that was it.
TT: Tell me about your educational background.
CH: Went to public school in Kilgore, grew up in Kilgore.
TT: Okay.
CH: Went to DePauw, D-e-p-a-u-w, University one year. When I was a freshman, that's in Indiana, Grand Castle, Indiana. Ah, the Eisenhower depression was taken place about then, about 1958 and there wasn't any work anywhere. You couldn't get a job; so, I stayed in Kilgore and went to Kilgore Junior College one year. And, then, ah still in the throes of the Eisenhower depression, I got a job off-shore; and, I went off-shore for almost a year, rough necken'. And, married a young lady from Diana, ah, in January 1960 and went to the University of Texas and finished my undergraduate work and then got to trying to find a place where we could go to law school. Since I had by that time had a pregnant wife and ah ......
TT: And, you needed a good job.
CH: Yes, (laugh) my oldest daughter was born in, ah, December of '61. I was working in Dallas then, and in October of 61 we moved to, ah, Washington, DC; and, because I got a job up there. And, went to law school at George Washington University Law School in Washington, DC. I graduated in the summer, 1966.
TT: And, what do you currently do?
CH: What do I currently do, I try criminal laugh sues. I, probably 90% of my practice has been, almost since I started practicing law, been the criminal practice and that is basically what I do. And, maybe 10 or 15% is personal injury work, plaintiff s work.
TT: And, what is your current connection with the Eastern District court?
CH: (Laugh) I don't know how long I've been, just pretty soon after I go out of law school, I came back here where I first practiced with Welby Parrish in Gilmer. And his sweet daughter, who I have known since she was a little bitty girl.
TT: I know Laura.
CH: Laurie is the District Judge there now. But, I practiced with Welby. Then, Democratic politic heated up and I went back to Washington for oh about .... oh a year and a half I guess ah and the elections did not turn out right. So, I came back and when, started practicing law in Austin. Practiced law in Austin 'til about oh 1974 when I came back to East Texas; been practicing law here ever since. Had an office in Kilgore and have had office in Longview since about 1979. We lived in Kilgore until we moved to Diana.
TT: That's where I thought you lived. That's where I had heard of you from. My father was from Kilgore. What changes have you seen in the court during your time working with it?
CH: Probably the biggest change that occurred in this district over here was when Bob Parker was the, ah, chief judge and he changed just about everything. But of course that's, pretty much defines Bob Parker. Ah, my first contact with that court over there was when Judge Shehe was on the bench who was a brilliant judge. And, was a brilliant lawyer before that, but, also an ulcer maker. He, ah, he had the ... I don't know what you call it ... the countenance or judicial method that kept lawyers ... with bellyaches a lot. He was a tough judge; but he was a fair Judge. And, then, ah, of course Judge Justice was on the bench pretty quickly after I started practicing law. And, of course he was my hero and still is. Kinda' a mentor to me. A judge's judge; a lawyer's judge; and also just a terrific human being; a fine man. Judge Steger, ah, went through his antics over there for a long time and age kinda' mellowed him. He is a friend of mine and ah, I enjoy practicing in his court. Used to, I'd just get a stomach ache when I have to go over there. But, ah, he's ah, he's got his own reputation. The other judges that have been over there, Bob Parker of course, he's pretty much my age, I have known him forever. I followed him into Welby Parrish's office, when, ah, Bob left Welby's office and went over with John Smith. I went to work for Welby and, ah, for a long time I, ah, I was among the former Welby associates, for a long time I held the record for staying with Welby longer than anybody had; I made thirteen month. (Laugh) Ah, ...
TT: Your choice or his?
CH: (Laugh) Mine! Ah, Welby (Laugh) was cantankerous and famous for it. Ah, he and I were great, great friends until he died. Well, I guess we were just too much alike to be in the same building. But, Bob and I used to commiserate every now and them about our experiences with Welby. But, Bob, Bob was, ah, a terrific trial judge. I hated to see him go onto the Court of Appeals, because he was such a terrific trial judge. He just had a sense for it and lots of guts. It is kinda' unusual now day with the guide line, my of course, I am speaking primarily from criminal practice; because, that's mostly what I do. But, Bob is, Bob was, lots of guts, courageous even in the face of those guide lines; and he unlike any other judge that practices before, he just had a sense of devil take the hind most kind of approach to it. Course he changed a lot when he go on the Court of Appeals. (Laugh) He started reversing judges for things he used to do. But, oh who else has been over there? Its change dramatically, the Eastern District has, because used to Judge Justice traveled everywhere. We'd go to Sherman and have settings; we'd go to Paris and have setting. And, when it was that way it was more like a circuit ride. You got to know people and see them frequently in other areas. You got to know the lawyers in Paris, the lawyers in Sherman, and the lawyers in Texarkana. And it's, just, a guess the way the population increased the court business - you can't do it that way anymore, but it was a lot more fun and lot more informal then too, ah, in the court itself there is kinda' a stiff formality to it now, kinda' a ritualistic formality; but back then it was kinda', ah you know, the federal court was a revered almost and a lot of lawyers avoided it. They wouldn't go to that court.
TT: Then you would say a lot of the changes were in procedures are done.
CH: And, I think it's the weight of what's going on. But, I can never remember that damn name Bob gave that, that procedure that he invented. (Laugh) Ah, something about, dispense and delay, I forget what it's called. It's too many words in it. It's the tract one, tract two, tract three kinda deal that ... You know I would like to think of myself as a young lawyer but I know I'm not. I've been around doing this for 36, 37 years and I'm not but that's, ah, you know, it's, ah, it's more of a computer age approach to, to justice. I know that when, when ah, they were, when Clinton was ... oh, first come into office, they were considering nominees for the federal bench. And there was probably 15 or 16 lawyers in the Eastern District that went to Austin and interviewed. And among this committee that Benson had, he had in affect for a long time, and Krueger our interim Senator, I call him, he, ah, was in the Senate then and he then. They had two openings as a matter of fact, ah, at the time. And, I went down and with a call was encouraged to make the application. I won't do that again. The applications are about three inches thick and want to know everything that ever happened in your life. And, I can't remember. Any way we were talking about what had changed up to then in the 15 years or so that had preceded that. Twenty years maybe, and ah, I was trying to think of the way I expressed that when they asked that kind of a question. I said it seemed to me that what was happening in the federal court was that it got to where it was concerned with the administration then with justice itself and, ah, I think that's probably still true. I know that I have good friends that are federal judges here in this district and in other districts in other states that ah some of the complaints that I hear from them are that there is so much of the, ah, cross the "T' and dot the "I' and fill out the form that it's taking away a lot of the real court room.
TT: The red tape?
CH: Yes, the red tape has overcome the lawyering. Seems to me like the federal system, there trying to just do away with lawyer, ah just take them out of the, of the process were in many cases, we're, we've been relegated to kinda, you know, antenna decorations on the limousine of justice.
TT: I like that (laugh). That might show up in the book.
CH: Ha, ha. (Laugh)
TT: What do you think public opinion is about the Eastern District Court?
CH: Ah, you know what, the public doesn't know, they really don't know. I'll give you a perfect example, that's the reason I am sitting here with my eyes half open I've been in a murder case for 2 weeks straight of every day 10, 12 a day of every day. Jury selection I pulled that elephant through the keyhole and I settled that thing today, so I am out of it. But, we were talking to jurors individually - it's a lot different than talking to juror in a panel. Because you can talk to them a lot straighter more in depth and its, ah, amazing to see the lack of informed citizenry. They just don't know. They think they know. They think they know. You ask them about, about precepts, constitutional precepts, ah, more than half we talked to 48 in the last two weeks before we stopped. More than half of those we talked to, ah, were absolutely opposed to the 5th amendment of course when you call it the 5th amendment in the questionnaire, you talk about do you think a law, a, ah, defendant should testify in his own behalf. Every, probably 70% said yes. Do you think, ah, that, ah, a defendant should be required to testify in his own behalf? Probably 60%. If a defendant does not testify, do you think he is hiding something? Probably 80% said yes. Ah, question if a person is arrested, formally charged, indicted, and brought to trial do you believe he is probably guilty? Probably 75% said yes. Ah, just the, that what's happening, it's just the things, that happen when the courts have rolled into what they are doing now. You lose the, ah, I don't know what to say, the majesty, of the justice system like you, like it was in the '60s and '70s.
TT: I agree with that completely. I liked to adlib a minute. I recently, in the last two years, served on a murder trial jury in Gilmer; I was shocked at the way the people in the jury room acted. Basically, it was, "look he's here obviously he is guilty of something. If you don't think he is guilty of this then give him a lighter sentence." And, that is really what was said in the jury room. It was shocking to me.
CH: I guarantee you that goes on in every jury room.
TT: Because there were so many people wanting a cigarette that they didn't care whether he was innocent or guilty or what the evidence said they just wanted to do something and get out.
CH: Let's do something and go smoke. And a lot of that has to do, to do with, we've lost that majesty that, that people, you know, they used to, they'd come to court and be quiet like they were in a library and whispering, you understand. Now, its clang, clang. You go to the big cities and it's, it's just distressing. You go into a courtroom where someone on trial for his life and there is banging around, there's computers on every desk whizzing and buzzing and popping and its, ah, it didn't used to be that way. [Interruption.] I think that is the most distressing change that's happened in the federal system. The one great thing that has happened in the Eastern District is by and large, by and large, ah, we've been very lucky with the selection of judges. From Beaumont to Texarkana, we have been extremely lucky. Republican and Democrats, I mean I'm not; I'm a Democrat, a yellow-dog, dyed in the wool. But, ah, but, they are, ah, Judge Steger is a Republican appointee, Judge Shell is a Republican appointee, Judge Cobb is a Republican, a lot of people don't like Judge Cobb, I, ah, I love him. I just he's, I just, ah, I just enjoyed him every time I've ever been around him. Ah, but, we've been fortunate, I'm sure. I've been in other, I've practiced all over and I've been in other areas where they're not quite that fortunate in this election. So, we've avoided the thing that has happened on the bench in a state system with elected judges. In the federal system, we have pretty much avoided. Although, it changed for a while, you know, you end up with a 34 or 36 year old federal judge and you're saying to yourself, he's hardly dry behind the ears and they're federal judges. And in the state system anymore its judging is profession in and of itself, has very little to do with the law. I told a judge this morning, the problem with judges is they go to law school they just don't go to lawyer school.
TT: Is the court ahead of its time or, ah, behind?
CH: Eastern District is ahead of its time. They have a clerk over there that's stepping out. David Maland is, ah, is an excellent, excellent clerk.
TT: He is the one who came and spoke to our class.
CH: Did he?
TT: And he had high regards for you.
CH: Well thank you, he is, ah, he is a, you know, most clerks are clerks; you know they kinda sit in the court room and watch what happens. I, ah, I don't, I don't know that I've ever seen David in a court room, unless we were sitting around a conference table using the court room to have some meeting about how we're goin' handle something. Ah, he's, and he is really, he's really done great deal in terms of, of providing services to the court and making it run. To kinda' reduce some of the stuff I was talking about - that red tape system that I'm talking about. Damnable guidelines are driving everybody crazy. But, ah, in criminal practice that's in every district in the country that's not just the Eastern District.
TT: He wanted to sit in on the interview; he wanted to hear too. He said you would have some stories. He also said you were good friend with Judge Parker.
CH: Long time. Long time.
TT: How did you meet him, through the courts?
CH: Oh, God no, I (laugh), I've known him since he was working for, Ray Robertson in Washington. I mean, we when we were both just kids basically. Ah, ... ah ... Bob's a, (laugh) Bob a when he go the, when he got appointed from Benson, there used to be a little bar over here in town in the Town Lake Shopping Center called George Henry's pub. And, ah, he, he was so high his feet weren't touching the ground, he was so happy, and I don't blame him, he was fairly young, in his early 40s when he got the appointment. And, ah, he said, ah, settin' there talking, I forget who else was in there, another local lawyer. And, I was settin' there and he was excited about his prospect; you down, he'd gotten the appointment and fixen' to go through the process. And, he said, ah, Scrappy, and you'll just have to excuse my language, but I'm going quote him. He said Scrappy, "You know if I make it though this and I get on that bench, if I ever turn into the kind of son-of-a-bitch that you and I have to deal with, I want you to come tell me." It hadn't been, oh I don't know, 4, 5, 10 years ago, maybe 7 or 8 years ago, time passes so fast, but he was over here, he was on the bench, of course, he was over here in Longview speaking to the bar and they asked be to introduce him. And, I introduced him, and I told that story about Bob saying that. And, when I finished telling the story, I said, turned around and said, and by the way Judge, (laugh) when we get through here this evening, you and I need to talk. (Laugh)
TT: (Laugh) And, did you?
CH: Oh, no because Bob never was that way. He a, there have been some that have been. But, Bob never was that way. Bob's a, Bob a, he ... Bob's a trial lawyer. He was a lawyer; and, that's who ought to be on these benches. People who had to make a living doin' this. And, there's another example, I was representing a guy, name doesn't make any difference or where he was from. He was an East Texas guy that was, a, a coach and he had gotten in a, a problem with a sixteen year old. And, ah, had a, he ended up in criminal problems with 'em, because of it. I represented in that matter. And, of course behind that, ah, a law firm out of Dallas sued the school district, sued the counselor, sued the athletic director, sued the superintendent, and sued my little coach. Of course, my little coach had no insurance, no money, and this big federal law suit was going on. So ... I, ah, I represented him. And we had taken depositions and I, you know, basically nothing. We showed up in a .. .in, ah, Judge Parker's court over there for a pre-trial conference under that tract system that he had invented. And, of course we were on one tract or the other. There had been a motion to move it to another tract to let them, to let 'em do more discovery and, ah. and had all these ... 2, 1, 4 lawyers with, with all their trapping and brief cases and little wheelie things and legal assistants that followed them around that were in the court room, oh, 8 or 10 of them. They were going through this process trying to get the Judge to allow them to move it up a tract. And they were saying, ah ... Judge ask them, well why you need to do this. And, one the, one of the lawyers stood up and said, well Judge you know ah, in the, ah, discovery and the disclosure ah, the, ah, defendant named 50 or more witnesses and so we need to dispose. And he said, why do you need to dispose all of those people? The guy said, well Judge you know we don't know who going to come and testify and, and if we go to trial there a chance that we need to cross examine them. Parker looked at him and said, you know, I am of course sittin' over and I never say anything anyway, I sittin' over there and he says, you know Mr. Holmes sitting over there almost every Monday morning, has to go to some court house somewhere and pick a jury and go to trial and cross examine witnesses that not only has he never deposed he didn't even know their name until the trial started. He said now I know and I understand that, ah, that when Mr. Holmes is trying those cases, what's usually involved is liberty and here we're talking about money. (Laugh)
TT: So do you think he is fair?
CH: Oh, yes. Oh, yes, fair across the board - fair as a lawyer. He did mostly defense work when he was a lawyer. I had cases with him, you know, were I represented the plaintiff. He was always, he's just hell of a good guy. He has a sweet wife and good kids.
TT: Honest?
CH: Honest, through and through.
TT: And, so how has he influenced your career?
CH: Probably as a sounding board. Because, I've had times when Bob would call and say come by here and see me. And, you know, just kinda give me a here's what's going on and here's what you need to look at. Not any exparte stuff, talking about life kinds of things. He's a good friend.
TT: Good. Ah, did Judge Parker shape the times are was he a product of them?
CH: He shaped it in the Eastern District without a question. And, I think you have another one in the process of doing that.
TT: Who's that?
CH: John Hanna. (Stretching arm out full) His hearts about that big and he is a true people person, a man of the soul. Came from, from basic roots. He has a feeling and an understanding that could only come from by experience.
TT: Was he criminal? Criminal attorney that is (laugh).
CH: He did a lot of criminal work, and a lot of plaintiff work. He was a, but he's, he was raised in, ah, pretty meager circumstances in ah, Angelina County. Came up the hard way so to speak. And, ah, that shows in his, ah, judicial temperament, in his, in the way he treats people. He has a good sense of humor too.
TT: Besides them, do you see any other judges as big influences in your life?
CH: From the Eastern District?
TT: Hum, yes.
CH: Of course Judge Justice is the classic. Ah, I always, I've always measured my conduct by whether or not it would please him. (Laugh)
TT: (Laugh) and, did it?
CH: Yes. (Laugh) Yes, I've never known anybody that, ah, got to know Judge Justice that didn't absolutely love him. And, a lot of people hated him that didn't know him.
TT: Of all the judges, who do you think is, ah, the most influential on, on the community around here?
CH: Ah, Judge Justice had the greatest influence on, on, and on not only East Texas but Texas and the United States. I mean he had a great deal of influence because he was courageous and ah, ah, believed in civil liberties. In his heart he believed in them. (Interruption.) Judge Justice was a Yarbrough populist. I guess, you know, are have heard of Senator Ralph Yarbrough. Senator Yarbrough was the, was the true populist type democrat governor, candidate for governor many times finally elected to the Senate in 1957. Um, a, ah, huge influence on this country as a Senator. Judge Justice was kind of protégé of Senator Yarbrough. I worked for Senator Yarbrough. I guess, ah, I've known Judge Justice since I was a teenager. And, ah, ah, watched, watched him take what he truly believed as a man and carry those true beliefs and feelings to that office as a judge. Which doesn't mean that he was soft on crime or was, was, ah, against big business, he wasn't he'd, he'd call the shots just like they were - call ' em like he saw 'em - follow the law. He wasn't a "namby pamby" about protecting individual right, individual liberties and that got him into trouble a whole lot politically. Particularly as this state became more conservative, more Republican oriented. Ah, we had a legislator from Jacksonville, I think, down in Cherokee County, I forget his name now, but, (laugh) he introduced a bill to have a juvenile detention center built next door to Judge Justice's home; because Judge Justice was, you know, taking on saying they ought to straighten prisons out, ought to straighten juvenile facilities out and turn, and quit making torture chambers out of them and start making penal institutes out of them. But he's, he's ah, he's doing well right now. He's doing just as well right now as he was when he was on the bench here; because, he's sitting an awful lot down in Del Rio and sittin' in Austin. He has a court room in Austin; He's doing well. Judge Steger, if you ask anybody stories about me and Judge Steger, the story they'd tell you is this: oh, probably seventeen years ago, we was in a trial and Judge Steger, well we had a trial and I represented the defendant in the civil case. The reason I was representing the defendant in the civil case is the same reason that I represented the coach the guy didn't have any insurance and didn't have any money. Ah, the guy had been sued by a law firm out of Shreveport over here for ah, guy got hurt in a oil field accident, got his leg cut off. My guy owed the truck and so, ah, they sued him and a drilling company out of Kilgore. And, the way Judge Steger ran his dockets you never really knew what was gonna happen. It would be set and then it'd be moved, wouldn't be reached, wouldn't be reached. And, I had business going on then representing some people in the Middle East in Saudi Arabia. And, Saudi Arabia is a real difficult country to get into. You know, you have to, your, you had a visa and there was a very small window that you had to go. So we had been trying to get this set up; and we finally got visas back. And, got the time set up and, and it was set up for October. And, this thing was supposed to be tried in August. Well, August it didn't make it. And, it rolled and it rolled and it rolled and finally rolled into September. And, I was saying you know, Judge I, you know; well this is going to trial. It's going to trial. And, it finally went to trial; I was supposed to leave on a Thursday afternoon at five from Dallas in order to make the connections and make that visa work. And, Charlie Clark, Possum Clark, and I were representing the defendants. Charlie was representing the company; and, I represented my little individual guy. We're in the, ah, in this trial- Judge Steger ruling his court like he did sometimes - We'd get started at ten o'clock in the morning and break for lunch at eleven thirty and come back at two, leave at four, you just never knew what was gonna happen. And, ah, finally ... I guess it was Thursday morning, or started Wednesday evening, started talking about, you know, what, what been proved and the plaintiff was fixin' to rest. And, had conference on Wednesday evening talking about it and on Thursday morning before we started trial and had one more witness before we started trial. And, ah, and talking about, you know, what did they prove and what had they proved against my guy. Well, everybody kinda' admitted that they hadn't put my guy in the deal. And, ah, his clerk's standing there say that to him, that we were having this conference. The plaintiffs lawyers were pretty much semi agreed, um, Charlie's clients were pretty much held in it and so, I supposed to be in Dallas at five 0' clock. I never did set a pattern with witnesses. I know we are going to break at 11 :30 and come back at 2. And there is no way I can make it. So I had started talking to Charlie; and he said, he said Scrappy he's gonna direct a verdict on yours. I said well, I, the problem is I don't think we are going to get to that before noon. He said, ah, if it doesn't get to it before noon I'll present your motion. He said just get somebody to come over here and sit here and I'll present the motion. So, I did. I, ah, got a lawyer, a young lawyer from Longview, and ah, just to sit in that afternoon when they come back from lunch. We'd be directed out and it'd all be over with. Well, I went ahead and left. And I, I was in Dallas in three and a half hours, I guess. And, ah, they got back and didn't get started 'til about three that afternoon - had other business to take care of And, they get in court and Charlie get up and present the motion to direct, you always present a motion, to present a motion to direct a verdict for his client and then presented a motion to direct the verdict for my client. Judge Steger granted the motion as to his client; overruled the motion as to my client. And, the young lawyer that I had settin' there didn't have clue where to go or what to do. And, now their telling me about this, because by this time I'm getting on an airplane. And, ah, Charlie finally just moved over and, ah, represented my client since he was familiar with the case, my client and the case. And, I'm on an airplane ... headed across the Atlantic. I get off the airplane and it's about a seven hour flight, must have been early morning. I was ... [Interruption.] But, when I got off the plane, I don't know what time it was here. Six hours ... [Interruption.] Ah, when I got off the plane at the -- airport in England there was this guy with this thick British accent (with a Texas copy of a British accent) "telephone call for Mr. Clifton Holmes." Scared me, you know, thought something was the matter with the kids. I answered the phone, it was my secretary. She said, you are in a world of trouble. I said, what for; and she told me the story. I was gone for three weeks. Good result in the trial by the way, ultimately. But, when I'm back about 3 weeks or so and I show up at Judge Steger court for a docket, setting docket, I had a criminal case on the docket. And, Judge Steger was calling the cases, I said we'll be ready our Honor. He looked up and he said, Scrappy, you ain't gonna run off to Iran again or ya'? (Laugh, Laugh). And, he still asked me if I'm gonna run off to Iran from time to time.
TT: And, do you tell him sometime, "yes"?
CH: I tell him sometimes I wish I could. (Laugh). [Interruption.]
CH: What else?
TT: What issues have you seen come before the court? What kind of issues do you think have been of major importance to the Court? Civil right, I know you mentioned prison reform.
CH: Judge Justice, of course, prison reform. The Reed's case is one of the major impacts on Texas, had a major impact on ah, ah, criminal justice in Texas. He had a lot more; he did a lot of things. There were school buses issues back in the early on, back in the early '70s, busing issues, segregation issues. I think he even appointed some cheerleaders one time to get that straight. Ah, he, ah, he, Judge Justice probably, of all the judges that I have, ah, that have been around in my time of practicing law, Judge Justice had the greatest impact. But, then he had a greater impact then a federal judge I know in terms of the far reaching decisions that he made. Judge Parker on the practice, on the practice probably had more impact than anybody. Because he was, he was interested in ah, finding a way to handle the business of the federal courts. I think he got short circuited by this guideline process that, that pretty much ham sprung the judges. But, ah, he had, ah, he had a huge impact on and, ah, and the work that he did on asbestos cases, asbestosis, and the way he handled that was ah, I think probably, set, ah, procedures that have been used across the country in those kinds of cases.
TT: Well, that answered another question. Okay. That answered about what you think, how the district, ah, how the Eastern District has effected nationwide.
CH: I think both, of course, Judge Parker's had the greatest affect nationwide on the practice because the kinds of things he did when he designed and I can't ever remember the name of it. Dis, expense and delay is what I call it. I can't remember the name of it. Anyway that system, a way of, of kind of handling the, ah, the business of the courts. The way he handled prison complaints with a, with a, the a, they call 'em swing hearing I guess, ah, that, using ah, ah, ... Judge Parker would go straight to the prison and have those hearing at the prison on those, on ah, those client, those ah, ah, civil rights claims by those prisoners. 'Cause I mean there was hundreds of 'em being filed, hundreds of them. And, of course they all filed them up here because there was this, there was this (laugh) phony belief that, you know, you file over up here you get Judge Justice and get anything you want. Well it didn't work that way in Judge Justice's court. Judge Justice would look at it just as hard as anybody else would look at it. But, the Eastern District was overloaded with those things, overloaded with them. And, ah, Parker, you know, developed ways to, to handle that, that mass of business. I think he probably utilized the magistrate judges more than had been the practice. So, he probably had, in terms of the structure of the court, the structure of the Eastern District, had more impact than anybody I've seen, ah, in my tenure here.
TT: What direction do you see the court moving?
CH: Oh, same direction their moving all over the country. Ah, more, I'd go back to what I said awhile ago. There seems to be a greater concern for the administration in justice than there is the dispensing of justice. And, and, I don't know how to short circuit that; I don't know how to stop it. Ah, the congress is not going to be interested in spending the money that it'd have to spend to, to, ah, take care of those, to take care of the business of ... one of the big problems was, ah, was the, a, the criminal cases kept getting more and more and more and of course the ah, the ah, the tendency in the federal system is to be more relaxed in the appointment of lawyer for indigents. And, ah, Judge Parker, when the CJA come around Judge Parker there were three of them on the original committee. He appointed Judge Hall and myself and I think a magistrate judge. There were only three members and of course now, we've added to that over the years. Judge Shell expanded it and ah, and put almost all the district judges on that committee. But, that's worked really well that CJA committee by first recruiting lawyers and then by making some judgment about what level of representation they could provide and, ah, and, that worked, worked well to kinda move those cases through the system. Because by and large anymore it's what the federal court does.
TT: What is the CJA?
CH: Criminal Justice Act.
TT: Okay. Well, that's all I have to ask. Did you want to add anything?
CH: No, that'll get it for me.
TT: Thank you so much for your time.
END OF INTERVIEW