Biography
Biography ContentTranscript
Biography Attorney. Worked for Judge Guthrie. Spoke of Judge Justice. Worked on Red cockaded woodpecker Endangered Species Act (hand written on interview cover page).
The interviewer Joe V. Tolleson, and the interviewee is Judith Hill.
JT: What is your name please?
JH: My name if Judith Hill.
JT: And, uh, what is your address? Where do you live?
JH: I live at 14820 CR 1125, Tyler, 75703 and my phone number is 903-561-1254.
JT: All right, today is April 24, Wednesday, 2002. We are at Christ Episcopal Church in Tyler for the interview. Will you discuss your educational background or legal training, Mrs. Hill?
JH: Well, I have a Bachelor of Arts in English from Sam Houston and I have a Jurist Doctor degree from the University of Houston. I graduated in 1976 and sat before the Law Review. I graduate magna cum laude.
JT: Okay, Thank you. Now how long did you work with the U.S. District Court here?
JH: Uh, about five years.
JT: Okay, and what about your work with the court? What basically --?
JH: What I did, I did a very narrow job. I did uh, (pause) many, many, many, many, many, habeas corpus cases, such as criminals, which is um, tremendous backup; all those many. Now I don't know if you what those are.
JT: Uh, well, just briefly overview them.
JH: Habeas corpus means "Give me the body." And, which you know, it's a common law cause of action when it's a way that you can be freed from prison if you are unlawfully detained. And we receive uh, they can, you can use a habeas corpus to recover a child in custody suits. It's been known to do that, but what we saw in the Federal Courts were normal cases filed by prisoners who were asserting a lot of things. But the only thing we really looked at was whether or not they were being held in violation of the laws and Constitution, mainly the Constitution.
JT: Okay, thank you. Uh, what about the changes in the court during your tenure? Did you see some changes that were maybe procedural, or interpretive?
JH: Uh, no. Shortly after I left, I think that the, the rules for actually appearing on the merits of the habeas corpus were uh, I think it was made even more onerous, even harder to get a habeas corpus. But that occurred after I left. And that was uh, I think that was a limitation of - (pause).
JT: Okay. What judges were uh, were there any judges that precipitated any change in the way the court was run?
JH: Well, I think in the way Judge Guthrie's court was run.
JT: Uh, I mean was there any change in the, well I guess really it would be Judge Guthrie's court that we're discussing here so, but any in the overall District Court here that you saw? Well, let's, let's just keep it to Judge Guthrie here, because uh, I think we can do better with that. The uh--. What about the public perception of this court, the U.S. District Court here in Tyler? How do you feel about that and is it a valid perception?
JH: Oh, well I think there was, well, you know I didn't, I only moved to Tyler in eighty-eight. I'm not really aware of community sentiment, you know. I understand there was a lot of uh, bitterness and hard feelings with Justice, because of his busing and integration of students. But I really didn't have anything to do with that.
JT: Yes.
JH: You know that was all over when I got here.
JT: Yes uh, that was just the perception that you saw and --.
JH: Oh, and I heard a lot of people complain bitterly about Judge Justice's involvement with the uh, the Texas Prison System. And of course in Judge Guthrie's court, heard by referral, many, many, many civil rights cases filed by prisoners.
JT: Okay.
JH: I didn't work on those.
JT: Okay, alright. Then uh--.
JH: I did attend a lot of hearings on these, too.
JT: Alright, then has the court shaped public opinion or been shaped by public opinion?
JH: Oh, I imagine Judge Guthrie's court has uh, --. She's very courteous and very efficient. I'm sure she has improved public opinion of courts and lawyers in general as anybody that knows her knows.
JT: Uh okay. What was Judge Guthrie like?
JH: Well, she uh, worked hard, she was usually quiet. She was very independent. She was clearly a role model for many of the others.
JT: Okay, What about your interaction with Judge Guthrie?
JH: We, Judge Guthrie and I had known each other for many years. I was a lawyer before Judge Guthrie was, so our uh, interaction was professional.
JT: How, how did she influence your career?
JH: Well, she didn't.
JT: Oh, she didn't influence it?
JH: Well, actually she called me from retirement to see if I wanted to work.
JT: Okay.
JH: I had already retired and uh, she had this vacancy and though it would be wonderful to have an experienced lawyer and I thought it wouldn't be as bad as practicing, and so I did it for a while.
JT: Ha! Okay uh, what cases that you had to do with would you say are really influential cases? Any in particular that--?
JH: Oh, not, not while I worked for--. You know I worked on that red cockated woodpecker case a lot but, I don't know--.
JT: Let me make sure I get that down right. What case?
JH: You know, I can't remember the style of the case. You know it's uh--.
JT: Well, well I mean what you called it.
JH: Well it was a case between uh, oh, TCONR, and that's the Texas Commission on Natural Resources. Uh, TCONR I guess versus, well I don't know how it was styled, but it was the Forest Service. They had two very opposing views on how the forest should be.
JT: Okay, alright. I just wanted to have that down right, so that when I'm doing this uh… What type of work did you, again, expand just a little on what you did traditionally before the court.
JH: I was, you mean before I got to her court? Or in her court?
JT: Well, which would be in her court that you--?
JH: I was a, I was a felony prosecutor for five years in Angelina County. Then I was in private practice for a few years, then I got remarried and moved to Dallas. Then I retired and didn't do anything for a couple of years. Then my husband and I bought acreage up here and decided to move, and while we were building our house, Judge Guthrie called and really encouraged me to come and work for her for a while and uh, actually I did very little in the courtroom. I did very much in my office back then. I mainly researched.
JT: Uh, would you say that Judge Guthrie, or perhaps other judges you were around, like Judge Hannah affected daily life in the community? Did they have a, did you see an affect that they had on community views?
JH: Well uh, as I say, I never--. I've been retired since before Judge Hannah became a judge, so I think Judge Guthrie, I think both of them are excellent judges in the courts. Now I don't know if that's what you mean or not.
JT: Well, that's fine. Uh, what issues have been important? You mentioned this thing on natural resources and uh, things having to do with the TDC (Texas Department of Corrections). What's some of the main issues there that uh, really come to mind?
JH: Anything in particular?
JT: Well, just those or some other issues. Some things you worked on or that really uh, had an impact.
JH: I don't know how much impact. The woodpecker case involved uh…
JT: That's what you said, woodpecker case.
JH: How much latitude the Forest Service had uh, under the rules and regs that guide them. It didn't involve anything that includes impact. About the only thing that, it's the best weapon that the environmentalists have. And now there may have been a little bit of an impact. Now after I left there really was some big involvement out of that case. But uh, it wasn't while I was there.
JT: Okay. Has the law changed as a result of the District Court when you were involved in it?
JH: No. Oh well, as I told you the law changed on habeas corpus. It was more difficult, it was almost impossible, it was virtually impossible to get a writ. But it's been badly abused. The lawyers file those things and they uh, try your patience. They, they don't , that has perhaps been a great law, but it's not something that the prisoners benefitted from. It's actually limited. It's uh, not effective. It's been really strange and --.
JT: I uh, I can imagine it's uh--. I just know what habeas corpus meant, but uh, as far as how it really applies, I appreciate you expanding on that. Okay, and what direction do you think the court was moving uh, I guess that's kind of a general question, but did you see a uh, --.
JH: Well, I was, I wasn't in a position to see that. The Federal magistrate operates mainly by referrals from the Fed, from the District judges. So the direction is shaped more at the District Judge level than at the magistrate level.
JT: Would you discuss attorney-judicial relationships? Uh, again I'm asking, I guess that's like you and Judge Guthrie or maybe some others you knew of. Just maybe in a little more general terms.
JH: Well uh, -- (pause) judges have lots of clout and lawyers may try to influence the judge to do something you don't like. They may try to persuade the judge to get something for their client. I don't know uh, by relations I don't know what you mean, social relations or professional relations?
JT: Well, professional I would say. What you said uh, well that would be appropriate.
JH: Well, you don't hear a lot. There are lawyers that will try to please the judge, they operate that way. And there are lawyers that will you know, dig in and take on the judge, take on anybody, just in a personality way.
JT: How have particular judges, mainly Judge Guthrie again, shaped your view of the law? Or has she? Or society? Use society or maybe, maybe you were--.
JH: See, I was pretty old when I went to work. My views were pretty well shaped.
JT: Yes, uh I kind of perceived that from earlier when that uh, you may have had some influence on her as well as her on you and--.
JH: Well, that would be possible. I had a lot of experience just from being a lawyer. I uh, I realized that the Federal system was certainly very cumbersome.
JT: This uh, may be a little better to answer. Did Judge Guthrie shape the times? Or was she a product of the times?
JH: Oh, I would say she shaped them. She was certainly a uh, you know she was one of the, she went to law school when I did and uh, she was active in many cases that were not necessarily law until later. Things fought for, for the betterment of women, for the betterment of mankind. So I think uh, well I think she was a product of that particular slice of time in history. But I also think that she uh, had actually experienced some uh, discrimination, because she was a woman and so I think that was fundamental in her mind. You know, that's something you never forget.
JT: Thank you. Uh, could we go back to maybe one or two particular cases uh, involving habeas corpus, you worked on so many? Some that you could just kind of tell a little story that would be interesting or pertinent? That you would be free to talk about.
JH: Oh, anything that I would address, you know is a public record, once it has been published, so that wouldn't be any problem. Give me a second and maybe some will come to me-(pause). Well out of all the many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, habeas corpus cases that I addressed, I bet we only granted the writ twice. And uh, you know I am uh, I am predisposed to believe that the job of the judiciary, the job of the criminal defense trials is to keep the government honest. You know I feel like that is why the lawyers should pass the (unintelligible word). They have to buy the time to cross the t's, even if it's blatantly obvious that somebody is guilty, it has to be done the right way. But that's why this is America. And that's why this is such a fine job, and particularly in the criminal system, because once you leave here, there is nowhere at all to go. If you can't get justice, if you can't get fairness there, there is none in this country. It's uh, you know it's very important that that be done. So when I review these cases, I review them very carefully. And I view them with a somewhat skeptical eye, because you know I have dealt in that a lot of times and I realize that everybody's not telling the truth all the time. And certain things uh, but anyway, saying that, telling you what my point of view was--.
JT: Oh, I appreciate that. That was interesting. You--.
JH: When I went into those cases and then I told you that the writ, that I only recommended to Judge Guthrie that I recommended that she grant it only twice, you can see what a theory there is to that.
JT: Yes Ma'am.
JH: But I remember, I don't remember the entire case, just what it was, but a guy had an iron-clad alibi, and the lawyer goes to trial. Uh, I guess he goes to trial, he may have just pleaded guilty. But I think he goes to trial, and has never investigated that. It has not gone forward any further. And that kind of ineffective defense makes it almost impossible for that kind of ineffective defense because of what the courts have said. How they have defined this type of defense. But that was, you know when you have a bullet-proof defense, and your lawyer doesn't defend it.
JT: Okay uh, that's, that's all good information. As far as something to do with, maybe back to that woodpecker case.
JH: Of course that doesn't have any - (pause).
JT: Uh, okay. I know, right. But that again was something that uh, apparently was well I know it was important because natural resources and the environment are important. But what, again, a little more about the significance of that, and how it came to mind and what, how if affected things?
JH: Well, the red cockated woodpecker is really this homely little bird, and the only means of --.
JT: Uh, well excuse me, but uh, let me make sure I can spell the type of woodpecker.
JH: Red; r-e-d c-o-c-k-a-t-e-d.
JT: c-o-c-k-e?
JH: c-o-c-k-a-t-e-d.
JT: Okay.
JH: He's this little guy that lives in an eight to ninety year old pine tree. And the pine tree has to have red-heart disease, so that he can peck out his little nest in there. Well uh, the lumber companies, people that buy timber from the Forest Service, uh, people that like highly managed, single specie forests, you know they come in and clear-cut it. They don't like those little old pine trees. You know those old pine trees aren't growing as much. They're gonna die. So their opinion in not one of leaving thick stands of that. But they are required by the Endangered Species Act to leave enough habitat for this little bird to live in. Now this is complicated by the fact that there is the Southern Pine Beetle, and he attacks old trees. And there are a lot of people who would just like to get rid of those old trees and all those old woodpeckers. So uh, there is a great deal of controversy between the Forest Service and the environmental groups about how you treat the pine beetles problem. And one model, Forest Service model I believe, is that you do a lot of cutting, perimeter cutting, to try to keep the infestation from spreading. Well, the uh, the other thing is, people want something about when you cut those trees down, or when you mark them, like they were putting little markers at the trees where the red cockated woodpecker had been, that that would leave a certain smell. And then uh, triggers sexual activity in these guys, and they won't eat the smell. And it's just, instead of uh, helping manage the problem, it's saying uh, "Here, pine beetles. Here's a good tree. Climb this one."
JT: Ha, ha!
JH: That's how far apart they were, and how opinionated.
JT: Gracious! Uh, that's interesting. I didn't know anything about that, but okay, uh now when you were researching something like this, I mean when this case first came up, where did you go?
JH: Oh, hummmm. Well, of course when you uh, when you see a case like that, the sides have written, they have written arguments, telling you what all they have written. They've written a pleading of the lawsuit itself, telling you what all they intend to prove. I guess that's how you would put it. And then they write briefs, which are all their, their arguments supported by legal authorities on why they should prevail. And both of them, as soon as they can take the same cases over, "It states here where I should win a hearing in this case." And the other says "No, it says here where I should win the sole hearing." It's all irresponsible. But you just, that's where you start, and then you start reading information to see if they are telling the truth in this case.
JT: You have to dig into a lot of paperwork then and --.
JH: Oh yeah!
JT: Do you, would you in a case like that, would you have physically gone to see some of the trees, or habitats?
JH: No, it's strictly from reading.
JT: Okay now, I guess I should have waited uh, while ago and gotten more about the habeas corpus. That was just kind of fascinating about the woodpecker case. Uh, does something else still come to mind you can expand on, about a habeas corpus case? Or a way that you research one in particular, or found particularly interesting?
JH: Well, no, not particularly. There is a certain set of standards, and you apply hat to the allegations of the prisoners. And often times the allegations just on their faith, even if they were true, wouldn't justify the rule within the law, so--.
JT: Did you have uh, really dealings, personally with some of the people requesting the writ?
JH: No. Now there were times when the writ uh, -- (pause) could have raised a question to mind if it was a very unique case. That was possible with a crime. Rarely was there a prisoner, even with counsel, that could plead one.
JT: Uh, was there a particular institution in Texas that uh, more of these cases came from?
JH: Well, they just came from facilities within our district.
JT: Did you and Judge Guthrie pretty well have the same viewpoint about uh, about the law?
JH: Yes.
JT: Did you have direct dealings with some of the counsel for the side trying to obtain the writ?
JH: No.
JT: What uh, maybe some other, okay we've talked about these two, the habeas corpus and the environmental cases. But is there something else that uh, would be--.
JH: I reviewed uh, social security cases, social security disability pleads, but--.
JT: Okay Mrs. Hill, when did you retire from the court?
JH: I think that it was in ninety-two, but I'm not positive.
JT: And what do you think maybe some changes have been?
JH: Well, during the time that I was there, the volume of the actual, Judge Guthrie's actual case load, increased. The uh, there was just more and more work to do. A great deal of it was because of the drug-related cases, and of course they took up a great deal of the court's time. Uh, the Federal courts used to be reserved for very important Constitutional cases, but because of recent legislation, everything and anything are court cases that in my own personal opinion don't belong. Because of procedural safeguards, the integrity of the Federal Court is so great and so significant that there is some, there are times when it doesn't need to be used. It doesn't need to be going to Federal Court, I don't think, normally in a minor crime; minor possession or just a minor breach of the peace, or whatever. Because I think, I just think they need to be treated with a certain restraint. The things that can be handled quite well in the state courts, I think.
JT: Yes Ma'am. I believe that uh, this job, I can imagine only some of the research because we are learning to do research and interviews. Did you have a lot of interviews that you did, with either, with counsel? Or was that something that was--.
JH: No, what I basically did was I did everything from what, I had, often I had a full print system of files, if I wanted it. Then I had arguments of counsel. And I would uh, I would see what they said the law was, and then I would check and determine what I thought the law was. And uh, you know I would see if they were accurately representing the records of what happened in the past. And sometimes I would, you know, I would see things in some cases that perhaps counsel had not seen. So uh, no. I mean this was a very uh, oh like "stay at your desk" job. This was an eight to five job most of the time.
JT: Okay, besides the uh--.
JH: But I will say Judge Guthrie was here when I came in.
JT: Okay, besides the library there at where you did your work, what library sources did you have to go to sometimes?
JH: Well, I could use, I had access to a computer. And I think we had a "Lexus" program, so I could access I guess any lawyers research, or academic research in the world, and most books.
JT: Okay, uh did you--.
JH: But I preferred to do my own research out of books. Probably nobody does that anymore. But I did it all on my own.
JT: And where did you, did you go to like some large city library? Or--?
JH: No, my offices adjoined our library, and there are lots of things available there.
JT: Alright. Did you have, let's see, I was just thinking, ninety-two was before the Internet, but you just accessed your library? Had a data--?
JH: We just had it all there. There were commercial people that, at one time, when I first got out of law school it was very interesting. You computerized charts, computerized stuff that, I don't think it was, the court had a flat rate. So we could use this system.
JT: Did you have an assistant to help you access some of the things, or--?
JH: No, I did that all by myself.
JT: Well, I do appreciate very much you taking time, Mrs. Hill, to meet with me today and answer some questions and uh, give me some of your experience, which is uh, vast because you, as you said, covered so many habeas corpus cases and other things. Uh, sounds like Judge Guthrie was good to work with, work for, work together. Again, thank you for this, and I will close the interview. This concludes the interview with Judith Hill. It will become a part of the oral history project of the Department of History of The University of Texas at Tyler in Tyler, Texas. The interviewer was Joe V. Telleson.